So,the East or the West-home is the best! Bye local salmon only -and it is really a time for some international attention towards both freely spreading lies with no disclimers and the European-based organ-harvesters of the past if any still alive.

This is a stupid attempt at being ”smart” and ”clever.”

It is not easy to create a blood libel because people will not believe anything written. No one would believe such a libel like this because no one, almost no one, harbors prejudice to Swedes.

If someone believes a blood libel against Jews it is not because the libel sounds realistic its because existing prejudice makes them want to believe.

Libels are not easy to create, they come after-the-fact not before established bigotry.

It is stupid to create one against Swedes on the grounds that people will see the ”easy” way to create libels. The context is entirely different. The way to fight against blood libels against Jews is not replicating in against others to show the fallacy, but getting at the root of anti-Jew hatred.

Suppose you tell us what the ”root of anti-Jew hatred is, Marco.

VM : “This is baseless rumours really. I cannot believe this is happening in Scandinavian countries. The only horrific thing I find about these countries is rampant child sex abuse.”

Not to put too fine a point on it, but this article is a satire, showing how easy it is to libel an ethnic group with falsehoods, partial truths and misdirection. There is even a disclaimer at the end of the article.

VM: “As far as the conflict between Israel and Palestine is concerned, (I regret to say this because you are my friend and an Israeli who served the IDF), the Israelis have always used disproportionate force against unarmed Palestinians.”

What would you consider “proportional? The legal definition of “proportional force” has nothing to do with responding to force used by an enemy with equal force. To do that would mean, for example, that for every Qassam rocket fired into Israel, Israel would fire one into the Gaza Strip. That is not the meaning of “proportional force” by any means. In the international legal sense, “proportionate force” means using the force necessary to achieve the political aim of the conflict. Just as you don’t burn down a barn to kill a single mouse—you don’t drop a nuke to kill a single terrorist.

VM: “Though suicide attacks at discotheques by terrorists cannot be justified by any means, this is perhaps the only way the Israelis left the Palestinians to ’put the word across’.”

I think you should check to see the roots of the conflict, which is NOT a “Palestinian-Israeli” conflict, but a single part of the Arab-Israeli conflict that has been going on for more than a hundred years. The history of the conflict did not start in 1948, and claiming it did is neither true nor honest.

VM: “Use of white phosphorous against civilian targets, assassinations, bulldozing houses, building walls encroaching Palestinian villages and farms, targeted killing of children and pregnant women with collateral damage crossfires as excuse etc. The list of Israeli atrocities goes on and on and on...”

It’s so common to see lists of “Israeli atrocities” while never hearing a single word about “Arab atrocities” that have been committed against Jews (and others) almost since the first day Mohammed invented his new religion in a cave in the Arabian Peninsula. Even-handedness and honesty have never been strong characteristics of Arabs or Islam.

VM: “India enjoys a good relationship with Israelis. I personally have many Israeli friends who served the IDF and came to India as tourists. I have a best friend who is a Jew. Nothing against them.”

How would you feel if I said, “I have nothing against Indians, my best friend is one”? This statement is a very patronizing one, and is detested by all.

VM: “But to see someone justifying the horror and terror unleashed by Israelis by comparing sporadic and often sub-lethal Palestinian attacks on Israelis is nauseating.
The hard fact remains that Palestine was an independent country even in the 20th Century. Israel’s so called ’history’ lies in biblical mythology.”

Again, I suggest you study some history in a wider range than Palestinian/Arab propaganda. There has been an unbroken line of residency of Jews in Israel for over 3,000 years, long before there ever was such a thing as “Muslims” and before Arabs were more than nomadic people wandering around the Arabian Peninsula, the Middle East and North Africa in small numbers as traders and Bedouins.

Throughout history, there has never been an independent country called Palestine. There was not even a district under any of the conquering empires called “Palestine”. Palestine is a name placed on the Judean Kingdom by the Roman Empire after it defeated the Jewish rebellions in c. 70 CE, and has been used by successive conquerors afterwards (Byzantines, Muslims, Crusaders, Mamlukes, Egyptians, Ottomans and Great Britain) as a generalized geographical description covering an area as amorphous as an amoeba. The “borders” of “Palestine” were only defined by the British after WW I—and included the countries we now call Jordan and Israel, the West Bank, the Gaza Strip and part of the Golan Heights.

See this map: http://www.passia.org/palestine_facts/MAPS/1923-1948-british-mandate.html (Note: this map is from a Palestinian web site, not a pro-Israeli one.)

As far as the Arab claim to “Palestine” is concerned, perhaps you should read some pertinent quotes from Arab persona:
= = =
When the first congress of Muslim-Christian associations met in Jerusalem in February 1919 to choose “Palestinian” representatives for the Paris Peace Conference, the following resolution was adopted:

“We consider ‘Palestine’ as part of Arab Syria, as it has never been separated from it at any time. We are connected with it by national, religious, linguistic, natural, economic, and geographical bonds.”
= = =
In 1937, a local Arab leader, Auni Bey Abdul-Hadi, told the Peel Commission, which ultimately suggested the partition of Israel: “There is no such country [as Palestine]! ‘Palestine’ is a term the Zionists invented! There is no Palestine in the Bible. Our country was for centuries part of Syria.”
= = =
When the distinguished Arab-American historian, Princeton University Prof. Philip Hitti, testified against partition before the Anglo-American Committee in 1946, he said: “There is no such thing as ‘Palestine’ in history, absolutely not.”
= = =
The representative of the Arab Higher Committee to the United Nations submitted a statement to the general assembly in May 1947 that said “‘Palestine’ was part of the province of Syria” and that, “politically, the Arabs of Israel were not independent in the sense of forming a separate political entity.”
= = =
On May 31, 1956, Ahmed Shukairy had no hesitation, as current head of the Palestine Liberation Organization, in announcing to the Security Council the observation, ”It is common knowledge that Palestine is nothing but Southern Syria.”
= = =
On March 8, 1974, Syrian President Hafez Assad told PLO leader Yasser Arafat: “You do not represent Palestine as much as we do. Never forget this one point: There is no such thing as a Palestinian People, there is no Palestinian entity; there is only Syria. You are an integral part of the Syrian people. Palestine is an integral part of Syria. Therefore it is we, the Syrian authorities, who are the true representatives of the Palestinian people.”
= = =
“There are no differences between Jordanians, Palestinians, Syrians and Lebanese. We are all part of one nation. It is only for political reasons that we carefully underline our Palestinian identity… yes, the existence of a separate Palestinian identity serves only tactical purposes. The founding of a Palestinian state is a new tool in the continuing battle against Israel.” Zuheir Muhsin, late Military Department head of the PLO and a member of its Executive Council, to the Dutch daily newspaper, “Trouw”, March 1977.
= = =
Were all these people mistaken or lying? Palestinian “nationalism” is a modern phenomenon that came into being as a tactical weapon in the Arab-Israeli conflict after the 6-Day War of 1967.

VM: “One should understand and accept that just as the world persecuted the Jews for centuries and displayed them all over, the Israelis are taking some kind of sadistic revenge by doing the same things what they endured for ages to the Palestinians.”

Again, this is straight out of Palestinian propaganda manuals and about 180˚ from the truth. As early as 1885, unarmed Zionist farmers were robbed, beaten and murdered by Arab gangs in Palestine. Riots, shouts of “Itah al Yahud!” and the murder of peaceful Jews were committed by Palestinian Arabs in the Jewish communities in Jerusalem, Hebron, Zefat, Jaffa, Tiberias, Gedera and Gaza in 1921, again in 1929 and again between 1936 and 1939. The Jewish communities in these cities and towns pre-dated the Muslim conquest of 638 CE. The myth that “Arabs and Jews lived in peace under Islam” is just that—a myth. The history of the Middle East is rich in Arab massacres of Jews, starting as early as 1011 CE in Cordoba.

VM: “They are refusing the scattered Palestinian refugees the right to return to their homeland.”

Still using the Palestinian propaganda manuals… the Palestinian refugee issue is a complex one with many misrepresentations and downright lies told on both sides. The question of a “right of return”, particularly of a population that has expressed enmity to the state, would be unacceptable to any government on earth. Would India allow millions of Pakistani Muslims bent on destroying India to return to their pre-partition homes? Would Pakistan allow Hindus to return to their pre-partition homes? I think you already know the answer to that.

Other than that, there are serious doubts as to the legal basis of many refugee claims, where the claimant is neither the owner of record nor a descendant of that owner. Waving a key in front of a TV camera and saying “this is from my house in Jaffa (or Haifa, Zefat, or wherever)” does not make a legal claim. I still have the key to a house I lived in 50 years ago in New York City. Does that mean I still have a claim on that house? No court of law in the world would allow such a claim, but many people such as you seem to think that they should.

At the same time that about 650,000 Arabs left or were expelled from Israel, Arab and Muslim countries expelled over a million Jews from their countries, divesting them of all property, assets and citizenship. If the Palestinian Arabs have a right of return or compensation, so do these Jews.

VM: “Barack Obama has brought in great hope to the Muslim world, especially to the Arabs during his brief presidency. I hope he rises above Zionist lobbying and blackmailing and listens to his conscience while taking decisions to solve the Palestinian-Israeli conflict.”

No, you would prefer that he cave in to Arab oil blackmail. I view Obama’s actions to date as those of a person who has little understanding of the Arab-Israeli conflict and takes the advice of biased advisors at face value. If he were pressuring the Palestinians and Arab countries in the same way he’s trying to pressure Israel, I would say “Fine”, but he’s not. I voted for Barack Obama, and am disappointed in his performance to date, both domestic and foreign. If he continues in the vein he started, he will go down in history as a worse failure than Jimmy Carter, who was the worst Democratic president in living memory.

VM: “We will have more debates on this here. Keep your views posted, you will find me just round the corner. And, nothing personal here.”

I have only two requirements: keep it civil and stop using propaganda slogans and buzzwords. If you want to debate, use facts and figures, quotes attributable to real people and documented support for your statements. Otherwise, a debate turns into rhetoric.

VM: “Complex? Okay, agreed. But is it more complex than tracing biblical ‘lost Jewish’ tribes from far and distant lands like the Bnei Menashe from Manipur and Mizoram in India and relocating and settling them in Israel-held Arab territories? What do you have to say on that?”

I’ve always thought that the Jewish settlements in Gaza were a political mistake, and have said so in this and other forums. Their theoretical basis was the previous Jewish community of Gaza, established in the time of King David and evacuated after massacres during the Arab rebellion of 1936-39 and the Jewish-owned land of Kfar Darom, a kibbutz established in 1930, but evacuated during the War of Independence in 1948 when Egypt conquered the Gaza Strip. Kfar Darom was re-established in 1970 on the basis of land ownership. Unlike the Jewish community of Hebron, there were no descendants of Gaza’s Jewish community interested in reviving it.

The Bnei Menashe are the ones who decided (on their own) that they were originally Jews and wanted to emigrate to Israel and live in the Gaza Strip. Whether they’re truly descended from Jews or not is a matter that’s still under discussion among the rabbis, who are noted for their obstructionism.

One note: calling Gaza “Arab land” is a misnomer. Under international law, the Gaza Strip and the West Bank are “disputed territories”, a status the UN has perpetuated by disallowing Jordanian, Egyptian and Israeli attempts to annex all or part of them.

The West Bank and the Gaza Strip are the last remnants of the League of Nations’ Mandate for Palestine. If I had my choice, they would be returned to Jordan and Egypt, respectively, but there’s one problem with that—neither Jordan nor Egypt want any part of the territories they held for 19 years (nor do they want any part of the Palestinians—most of whom are descended from recent migrant workers following the money trail from Egypt, Syria and Lebanon during the Mandate period). There are very few “Palestinians” (less than 20%) who can actually trace their family’s presence to Palestine before the 1920s and 1930s.

VM: “Right! But you can definitely use white phosphorous in civilian areas indiscriminately to kill a few terrorists! You indiscriminately bombard Palestinian refugee camps killing hundreds of men, women, elderly and children, in order to retaliate against a terror attack against your athletes in Europe. (Munich 1972 followed by immediate bombardment of Palestinian refugee camps). There might be terrorists hiding in those camps, but what was the method used?”

Please document this claim. Which refugee camps and where? There is no mention of this in any article about the aftermath of the Munich Massacre, but plenty of references to targeted killing of the perpetrators and planners—including at least one mistake.

I noticed and commented this article:
http://rudraprasad25.instablogs.com/entry/hindus-sikhs-are-kicked-out-from-home-in-pakistan-indian-govt-still-silent/

Vishnu:

You make the claim: “The hard fact remains that Palestine was an independent country even in the 20th Century.”

If this is true, you shouldn’t have any problem answering these questions:

1. When was it founded and by whom?

2. What were its borders?

3. What was its capital?

4. What were its major cities?

5. What constituted the basis of its economy?

6. What was its form of government?

7. Name at least one Palestinian leader before Yasser Arafat?

8. Was Palestine ever recognized by a country whose existence, at that time or now, leaves no room for interpretation?

9. What was the language of the country of Palestine?

10. What was the prevalent religion of the country of Palestine?

11. What was the name of its currency?

12. Choose any date in history and tell me what the approximate exchange rate of the Palestinian monetary unit against the US dollar, German mark, GB pound, Japanese yen, or Chinese yuan on that date was.

And, finally, since there is no such country today, what caused its demise and when did it occur?

Good luck!